I don't know either of these fellas and I don't generally do this.

But Sullivan nails the religion part of this interview from last fall, and speaks directly to my heart when he says:

"Because if you just have doctrine, and you do not feel Jesus in your actual life, if you do not feel it in the practice of faith, if you just cling to doctrines and certitudes, you become what Jesus criticized, which was the Pharisees ...

if you mistake doctrine for faith, you are confusing two things."

Jim was saying that to us ... to me ... on Thursday night.

Sullivan hasn't any sympathy for fundamentalism or evangelicalism that puts Paul ahead of Jesus and seeks certainty:

"There’s something about the certainty and intolerance of some contemporary Christian fundamentalists that I think that should be alien to the spirit of Jesus, and alien to the spirit of humility."

Sullivan refers to VCII as "the Second Council" - a novelty to my ears.

If you can overlook each party taking turns playing the victim and get past the insults, it's interesting listening. Sullivan plugs John Courtney Murray ... a name you don't hear anymore ...

Hewitt's charge of "sophistry" is simply gratuitous: just bad form for a Presbyterian to whisper that at a Catholic.

Program Transcript

Listen