Jim mentioned the rewording of the adult catechism this evening as we discussed Romans. Since Matt and I had just discussed this a little, I had a head-start on it.

Dominus Iesus says:

With respect to the way in which the salvific grace of God — which is always given by means of Christ in the Spirit and has a mysterious relationship to the Church — comes to individual non-Christians, the Second Vatican Council limited itself to the statement that God bestows it “in ways known to himself”. [paragraph 21]

The footnote references paragraph 7 of AG and calls such people "inculpably ignorant."

Then, there's paragraph 16 of LG.

And some cherry-picked verses from Romans 11 [KJV]:

I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

And so all Israel shall be saved ...

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the father's sakes.

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:

Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.

For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

In the Isaiah study today, I read 45:17 - "But Israel is saved by the LORD with everlasting salvation;"

Bill was rather put off by the description of God "handing them over" or "delivering them" to depravity. Jim read from Fitzmyer's comment on 1:24 which I have here and can cite, page 284:

"Although God's wrath will manifest itself definitively at the eschatological judgment, it is already revealing itself in human history. God does not allow the impious pagan to prosper; he gives human beings up to their sin, withdrawing his blessing and allowing moral degradation to pursue its course in sin that disgraces humanity ...

The rhetorical triple use of paredoken (see also vv 26, 28) ... shifts the discussion from the question of guilt to that of punishment or fate. Each example intensified the punishment. He seeks thereby to establish an intrinsic connection between sin and punishment; impiety brings its own retribution (see Wisdom 11:15-16).

Then Fr. Fitzmyer quotes Kasemann, "Paul paradoxically reverses the cause and the consequence: Moral perversion is the result of God's wrath, not the reason for it."

We aren't done with Romans. We'll do chapters 1-8 next time.